Very well said!  The problem has always been our government's inability to analyze the real problems (read: incompetence) not to mention lack of accountability.  An incompetent gov't always chooses to focus on the symptoms rather than dealing w/ the root cause(s) of the problem.  It's not a surprise of course since it's easier to point fingers than figuring out a solution and usually incompetence always favors the easy route.  People w/ education (thus have choices) are like water...it will always seek its own levels.  If you want people to stay, promote business friendly policies that would encourage the private sector to provide decent living wages comparable to at least its neighboring countries.

Pinoys have believed, and to continue to believe,  the delusion that financial independence cannot be achieved here. Hence the desire to migrate.

The view that "A nurse who moves from Manila to the US earns thrice as much, immediately, even when adjusting for the cost of living" needs to be looked at closely.

The pay may be 3x as much, but the cost of living is 3x as much as well. The family income of a nurse (with spouse and 3 kids) in the US may be US$50,000 (and Pinoys will surely marvel at it!! 'wow ang laki'). Yet they are living in Manhattan, or Palo Alto, or in  a city where US$50,000 is the poverty threshold!

I know of a few Pinoy nurses in the US who earn almost five figures a month - but they had to work 20-hour days. every day.

Lets ask the nurses who brought their entire families to the US if they can send their kids to private schools, and not depend on the government for healthcare, and are debt-free

It is called brain drain because its Uncle Sam who benefits. At best, the Philippines gets crumbs only

Although this was posted in April 2009, most the information is still relevant - UNEMPLOYMENT AMONG FILIPINO NURSES CLARIFIED - http://pinoybsn.blogspot.com/2009/04/unemployment-among-filipino-nurses.html Original source: http://www.bonphilippines.org/

I can't call it a brain drain if the "brain" does not even have a use for it. Nurses and other people (IT people like me), move out of the Philippines because of opportunities. Yes, the price of a burger or pancit canton is significantly higher in other countries (if you factor the peso-dollar exchange rate), but the purchasing power of our salary is significantly higher. As soon as a nurse arrives in the US, on her first year, depending on her location, she can get herself a: car, an apartment, flat screen TVs, health insurance, computers. If she was assigned to a cheaper state (like Indiana, Ohio, Virginia, etc.), after the first year she can probably afford to buy a house (via mortgage). Now, where in the Philippines can you do that, unless you have RICH parents?

Francis: here is a careful study done on the income gains that accrue when people migrate to the US. The authors adjust for cost of living. They calculate how much somebody outside the US gains from moving into the US, using a dataset of 2 million workers around the US.

For the Philippines, the income gain is thrice as much!

I cannot believe that people migrate because they are delusional. Because this assumes, filipinos are 1) stupid and are not able to realize whats good for them and 2) are intentionally wanting their families to be less better off. These are assumptions that I believe are untenable.

I'm sorry I couldn't include the graph, but if you click on this link, the whole chart would appear.

Apologies, this is the link to the study about income gains:

http://www.cgdev.org/content/publications/detail/16352

Paolo: Let me say it again:

"...the delusion that financial independence cannot be achieved here."

this is the delusion - that financial independence cannot be achieved here

As to the income gain for the Philippines being 3x as much  - the cost of living is 3x as much as well! How much discretionary income do they have left? And they still had to send their kids to public schools and had to rely on the state for health care, becaue they can't afford these two from out of their pockets

The discretionary income - income after taxes and living expenses like rent and food - that's the real measure of "gain"

The study you cited is only on the supposed income gains. Hope you can cite a study on income after taxes and living expenses, and quality of living. Each spouse working on 2 jobs, 18 hours a day, just to make ends meet, is not living comfortably anymore

 

Roland:

"...she can get herself a car, an apartment, flat screen TVs, health insurance, computers"

on cash? not on credit?

health insurance is available here thru the HMOs

"...after the first year she can probably afford to buy a house (via mortgage)"

that's also possible here, for PAG-IBIG members

"Now, where in the Philippines can you do that, unless you have RICH parents?"

oh no need for rich parents to do that here. you can do that on credit here, so there's no diference on how is it done there

If we try looking at this issue from a more objective and less emotional perspective, it is definitely true that the quality of life in the US is much better than it is here in the Philippines.

Although the blog raises the question of whether or not it can be considered "brain drain" for an educated person to work abroad.  And clearly the answer is YES. regardless of the purpose, the motive, stimuli or intention, a locally educated person moving to another country to work is brain drain.

I believe the author is confused.

my own definition of brain drain...

if your field of study is under the STEM Designated Degree Programs (http://www.ice.gov/sevis/stemlist.htm), and you are a decent scientist (or engineer), who has the potential to contribute to your field or perhaps start a serious business (i.e., not just work blindly for some company), and you leave the country... thats brain drain right there.

Outside of that, I'm not sure if we can even call it brain drain... if there's no real 'brain' involved.

er, Judith, that post deserves a separate blog entry of its own

"...it is definitely true that the quality of life in the US is much better than it is here in the Philippines."

I think many who are presently residing in the US will disagree with that. Yes, even from the most objective point of view. The default mode of thinking of Filipinos is that they'd rather be in the US than in any other country (including the country of their birth). For Filipinos, the US will always be the emotional choice

Francis, I think when you say people in the US, you mean people in LA or NY...It is a different story for those who lives in cheaper states like Ohio, Indiana, Virginia, etc. I would like to cite an example, me, in my case, I have lived in the Phils a majority of my life, and worked more than 6 years with around Php40K salary (this was pre 911). I was living with my parents, used their car, had my own room. Even with a this salary, factor in car maintenance, gas, parking, traffic, I take the LRT everyday, losing around 2 to 3 hours of my life everyday to the commute (from Novaliches to Makati). My credit card limit was around 50,000 pesos. In the 6 yrs I worked in the Philippines, all I got to save was less than 100K... I got married, and we were living with my parents to save money vs. renting our own place. House prices within the city is horrendous, and only cheap places were those in Rizal, Bulacan, etc. which would add at least an hour more for my commute. Add more to monthly payments like electricity, water, property taxes, No more money left for kids and other amenities. Flash forward, I migrated to Canada, 2005, my first year, I bought car, rented a place in downtown. Slowly build up my credit.. On my second year, I get $10K credit card limit, I bought a house, my mortgage rate was the same as my rent, so we took the plunge. 4 years later the car is paid off, No major loans (except for the mortgage). We have all the luxury items at home, computers, LCD TVs, xbox360s, etc. My son goes to a public school (free) which is 2 blocks from our home, has all the great amenities (computers, baseball, basketball, playground) Sure it is 3x more expensive than in the Phils., that is if you compare it via exchange rates. But gadget wise, it is cheaper here (I have 2 units of PS2, bought it from a garage sale for $10), my iPhone is free (actually $300 on a 3 year contract, but I got 2 and sold one for $700 on ebay)... FYI my cell phone plan is $15 a month (unlimited talk during evenings 6pm and weekends, 300 minutes during weekdays) For me, Quality of life is the basis here. Not the exchange rate. In order to get the same quality of life in the Philippines, you have to factor in, water, electricity, accessibility to services (like school, doctors, etc), traffic, pollution, peace of mind. Sure, there are tradeoffs, like relatives, pinoy foods, etc. but 4 years here, I cannot possibly achieve in the Philippines in 10 years...

"I think many who are presently residing in the US will disagree with that. Yes, even from the most objective point of view. The default mode of thinking of Filipinos is that they'd rather be in the US than in any other country (including the country of their birth). For Filipinos, the US will always be the emotional choice" Again, you probably are thinking about people who are based in expensive cities like LA or Manhattan. Living in the US doesn't mean you have to live in LA or expensive NY. There are lots of people living in other states, and it is cheaper there with more quality of life. I once lived in Boston, and rent there was around $1000 a month. I moved to Indianapolis, and rent there was $400 a month. I had the same salary, and puff, I was spending money like I had no tomorrow. My apartment was a townhouse, there's a pool, lakeside, gym, etc. It was like I was living in a resort. House prices weren't bad either... but I was on a working visa back then, so didn't buy a house.

Roland,

I think the same argument you made vs. Francis re: NY or LA vs. the provinces can also be made in the Philippines.

If you lived in Manila, of course your cost of living would be up, but had you had opportunities in provincial capitals like Cebu, Bacolod, or Davao, the same principles would apply. 

Sure the opportunities would most likely be more limited (e.g., these would be limited to the BPO industry which is trying to diversify its locations) but then again, the same principles apply. Manila and its suburbs is expensive.

"People are not lost in any meaningful sense when they move overseas. They are not petroleum that can be drained. They are human beings with aspirations and dreams, whose fruition in the US or elsewhere is a beautiful thing. Nurses freely choose to migrate and continue to do so in huge numbers. They have reason to value it. Now tell me, how is this not development?"

It's true. When a person moves to the states, depending on where they move, they earn more.  They are able to provide more for themselves.  They earn thrice as much, and will probably live a more comfortable life, providing they make good choices.  And yes, it is development, just not for the RP sense. 

It's development for the individual who leaves, and the country who ends up on the receiving end of the resources.   A minus for the country who loses the possible pluses of that person.  

I see the reason why they leave, they want a better life.  They want bigger pay. They want the comforts afforded by living in a developed country. 

But how is migration a continuing solution to RP development?  Is it all about the dollars one person gets, and the remittances that they send?

While achieving personal success isn't bad, I can hardly call it a win for development.  When a nurse leaves, I don't benefit from her skills.  Someone from another country does.  And while the money s/he sends feeds her family goes to our economy, it's only good while that one person is working. A number of migrants send money to fund a relatives education, most likely nursing, or some other degree that will get them out of the country. Or they actively work to get their family out of the family, who may be professionals  that already make a significant contribution here.  

Again, there's nothing bad with them making it in another country and living a better life.  But until that person decides to repatriate and contribute their knowledge and skills here, there's really nothing that they can give back to the our development besides the money they make.  And pretty soon, other countries will have caught on.  We aren't the only ones starting to send people out. And then where will we be?

 

 

Kriszia Vengua: Sure, it represents a possible minus for the Philippines when people leave. But in the case of nurses, surely you would agree that we should hesitate calling their migration as a drain? Because of the migration option, people are actually educating themselves as evidenced by the chart. Otherwise, these people would not have educated themselves if there was no option to migrate. We have so many nurses per capita. That is hardly a brain drain if your definition of it is the loss of educated people in the country. So for the case of nurses, let's agree that we should hesitate calling it a "brain drain."

I don't think anyone here would argue that preventing people from moving when they freely decide to is an appropriate development goal. Aside from my argument above for nurses, it's also a matter of ethics: no one would prevent a Cebuano from moving to Manila if he/she values it. No one. Why should it be different for international migration?

In the 60's, when women left the households to go into the workforce - to get jobs in industry, etc. aside from the usual teaching and nursing jobs - people bemoaned the fact it would have negative impacts on the school system. Studies show that it did have negative impacts the public schooling system in the US. But no one here would use that argument to prevent women from getting jobs that they value and have reason to value. Why should it be different for international migrants? Why should we prevent them from leaving if they deam it valuable to their development?

And please note that I'm not saying migration is THE solution to development. I am just saying that we should hesitate in saying that it causes a brain drain.

I don't think people would have hesitated to educate themselves if the carrot of migration was taken away.  What else would they have done, if they really wanted to improve themselves?  Or perhaps become entrepreneurs. But they would not have been stagnant.

And there's actually a lack of nurses, that's why there's an initiative trying to mandate nurses serve at least two years at a local hospital before they leave. 

Sure, nowadays, with nursing schools busting at the seams, there seems to be a surplus.  But what of the quality of nurses that stay?  Not to say that all nurses here are crap, but majority those who have become proficient leave.  

Half the nurses in hospitals want to leave.  And some of those that stay only do so because they're not RN's, or didn't pass the NLE.  

Even more depressing is migration from the provinces to the city.  Manila is crammed, and provinces need all the help they can get. Sure, you can't stop a person from seeking better opportunities, especially when their family needs it.  But why should it be called development, when in the long run, everyone loses?

And why can't I call it a drain, when the best of the bunch leave?  And what I am left with is mediocre or inexperienced?  

To use your example, sure, we can't stop women from entering the workplace.  Even when US kids got a little dumber, if mom wants to have a life, why not?

But to say good nurses leaving is not a drain, is like saying there were no negative effects in the US public school system.  We don't want to drag women back to the kitchen, but at least admit that there is a problem.

 Otherwise, why work on getting solutions?  We can just be content with mediocre nurses, when the best nurses, and even a handful of doctors, go treat people abroad.

 

The reason why I don't like the term brain drain is because it means that the NET result is always, without question, a drain - a loss in the number of educated people in the country. But the NET result might actually be a gain, as the case is with nurses. We have higher per capita nurses than so many other developing countries.

If you mean brain drain in terms of the GROSS loss of educated people because they leave -- sure, I agree with you. But that doesn't say anything meaningful, no? Policy-wise, what matters is the NET effect.

There is a lack of nurses in rural areas, I agree, but not in the Philippines in general. Preventing nurses from leaving the country does not necessarily make them work in these rural areas. So the policy implication is not about preventing them from leaving but giving better incentives for people to work in these rural areas. People leaving to other countries is a symptom not a cause of poverty.

Roland,

1. Regarding "3x the income, 3x the expenses" - i mentioned that to stress something you missed out - discretionary income. What's left after taxes and basic living expenses.

Here, you may still be able to send your kids to private schools, and you can still afford private medical care.

But there, your kid attends a public school. Does that mean if not for the public school, your kid cannot have education?

Would it be the same in heath care? Here, thru the HMOs, one can have access to private medical care. There, do you still have to go to state hospitals?

The quality of public education and public health care is not the issue here. Discretionary income, or net income is. It would seem that at first glance, Pinoys migrate to the US and end up depending on the state for education and health.

So my guess is - a Pinoy might be better off here because he has a little more discretionary income, as he doesn't have to depend on the state for education and health care

2. it would seem that you define "quality of life" in terms of having 'gadgets'!

the iPhone is here already. and for a monthly subscription of less than US$100, for 2 years minimum, the iPhone is free. but no unlimited calls.

as for cell calls - your "unlimited talk during evenings 6pm and weekends, 300 minutes during weekdays" is also available here! though more expensive (a little less than US$100 a month). but hey, there, received calls are also deducted from your 300 minutes, right? that its possible for you not to call anyone, but 'anyone' calls you, and you still consume your 300 minutes? not the same here

as for "home, computers, LCD TVs, xbox360s, etc." - they are all available here! on credit also!

Wii is here too!

"People are not lost in any meaningful sense when they move overseas. They are not petroleum that can be drained. They are human beings with aspirations and dreams, whose fruition in the US or elsewhere is a beautiful thing. Nurses freely choose to migrate and continue to do so in huge numbers. They have reason to value it. Now tell me, how is this not development?"

No benefit for the Philippines.

Before it became an economic superpower, the US had the good fortune of having citizens who did not migrate to other countries, who stayed behind to modestly contribute to making America a good place to live in

The Philippines is still waiting for that generation of Filipinos willing to make that 'sacrifice' of foregoing migration dreams and stay behind, do their share in helping their country progress

 

"The reason why I don't like the term brain drain is because it means that the NET result is always, without question, a drain - a loss in the number of educated people in the country. But the NET result might actually be a gain, as the case is with nurses. We have higher per capita nurses than so many other developing countries."

That's really why I never liked the statistics, it's a flat number.  You never see what's behind it.  

There is a loss of nurses, far beyond the rural area. What we have are a lot of nursing "graduates", not so much nurses.  

It's like saying Manila, Cebu, Davao comprises the Philippines.  And even then, there is a lack of competent nurses.  The smaller hospitals and clinics can't find good staff, the bigger hospitals get them.  And when they get experience in the bigger hospitals, they leave.  

Nobody said that the nurses leaving was a cause of poverty, but it does contribute to bad healthcare.  

What does a kid dying in Mindanao have with a migrating nurse? It's this: incentives are already being given in some places to have nurses stay with ample pay to live a middle class life in some areas.  The  Gov. of Lanao del Norte is revamping their healthcare program, but can't get the experienced doctors and nurses because they're all gone.  And why should they stay, right?  They'll have a lower middle class life. They want their DVDs and cars and bigger houses. 

Of course, we can't camp at the airports telling nurses they can't go.  It's their prerogative.  

The reality is this, out of X amount of nursing grads, around 70% leave.  Of the 30% that stay, some will not pursue nursing, others will just  be "so-so".  Around a handful will be excellent nurses. Guess how many hospitals we have? 

As for the argument that "nursing" becomes an incentive for people to educate themselves because they are enrolling in nursing schools by the thousands...

How many would rather not have gone to nursing school, but taken another course that they are passionate about? You make it sound like the only reason they went to school is so they can be a nurse and leave.  Very, very few have that mindset. 

If a person wants to educate themselves, they will.  People just choose nursing now because it's the money-maker, but not everyone in nursing school wants to be a nurse.   (Anyone remember when we had a surge of engineers?)

Better yet, how many students in nursing schools are on their second course? A number of them were former drs, pyschologists, chemists, engineers...I not only lose a competent nurse here, but people from other fields as well. 

Again, what we have is a surplus of nursing graduates, not nurses. 

Francis, You sound as if you can afford all of these things you mentioned... may I ask how much is your monthly salary? A range would suffice. I would just like to cite as an example, a friend of mine who came here as a caregiver. She used to be a nurse in Manila, came here as a caregiver, slaved for 2 years, and once she became a Permanent Resident, got her Nursing license after a few months of schooling (to be able to pass the nursing board)... After a couple of years, she owns an impressive bungalow, 4 bedrooms, 2 baths, all the amenities (52 inch TVs, etc)....2 cars, and right now they're slowing furnishing their summer cottage near the lake (so they now own 2 houses)...
In contrast to this, is her classmate friend, who stayed behind in the Philippines, still living with her parents, also married, but her husband is an OFW in Saudi (my nurse friend's husband is also an undergrad unskilled worker so, the point of comparison is still the earning capacity of a nurse) they only have a tricycle and motorcycle, 4 kids who are sickly, and most of their money goes to pay for their kid's private school, food, electricity and after 10 years, they still are trying to raise enough money for the "Show Money" fund to immigrate here to Canada (a family of 6 would need $20K Canadian, so around Php900K)
You're berating the public school systems here in Canada and the US, but you're still in your LA/NY mentality that all public schools (Phils and abroad) are rotten, or for poor people only. Unlike in the Philippines, the public school systems in the western countries are way more advance than those in the Philippines. A majority of private schools there in the Philippines are mostly delapidated, some doesn't even have decent toilet facilities (I should know, I attended private school in the Philippines)... And I guess most doesn't even have airconditioning, water, and electricity (even those expensive private schools are at the mercy of the incompetent government we have there, so even if they have generators or water tanks, dengue and air pollution is still a factor)... The schools here has all the amenities, children have balanced education and physical training (my son's school even has a microwave for each classroom for heating their lunches). They have free field trips to the zoo and events, and their classrooom sizes is no more than 30 students per room. As for everything being available there, it is not a question of availability, it is a question of AFFORDABILITY... Are you saying a middle class person there can afford all the stuffs a middle class person like me, here abroad? It all boils down to opportunity and reliability. Can you say that in a couple of years, your children will have opportunities like you had since you are very content on duking it out in the Philippines? I'm not saying the Philippines is a hopeless case, I'm just pragmatic and tired of hoping for our politicians to change. a country of 80 million people, a majority (12Million) of which is crammed into an area of 600 kilometers (Quezon City/Makati/Manila), much like LA or NY, although worse (LA's population is around 3.8million in an area of 1000KM) , there is bound to be a boiling point that people would have to jump ship as since there is only so much opportunities for people to improve their lives.

Krizia

I think the brain drain example cited by the OP is wrong, the brain drain, I think, is for doctors, my sister, who is a doctor in the Philippines, had told me, a couple of years ago, that most doctors shifted to nursing (a majority of her doctor friends took up nursing and went to the US)... plus she said that only 10% of the usual numbers took the doctor's board exams that year... My son's' pediatrician was one of those who shifted to nursing, went to the US, became a nurse for a few years, then took the doctor's board exams, and is now a GP in a big hospital there...

Thanks Kriszia. First, I wonder what these nursing graduates have to say when they hear that think they're only graduates but not nurses. That's a strong statement to make about these people.

Second, I think you're arguments are inconsistent. You say these nurse graduates are incompetent (they're just graduates), but then when they leave you say its bad for our healthcare system. If they are that incompetent, then we'd be happy to have them go, right?

Third, I maintain that migration is not the problem but rather it is the distribution of healthworkers between metropolitan areas and rural areas. We have enough trained nurses -- there is no drain. Preventing people from leaving will not fix the geographical problem

That being said, I respect your views. I'm looking at only nursing here and there is also something to be said about doctors becoming nurses, etc. I'd want to look more into that.

"So my guess is - a Pinoy might be better off here because he has a little more discretionary income, as he doesn't have to depend on the state for education and health care"

A Pinoy may be better off in the Philippines if he has a little more discretionary income? You are rationalizing that if you are rich then you are better off in the Philippines. period.

I agree.

But how little is "little"?

How much is a middle class family in the Philippines earning? I assume it's around Php50K a month (before taxes, so that around Php40K net, assuming 20% tax)

but realisticly, an average income a well off college grad would probably be Php30K a month...with Php25k net, electricity would be 3K (if you have computers and aircondition), gas Php2K (1K if you commute), food (100 a day, around 3K, Mortgage (2 million peso house) around Php15K(plus taxes, insurances)... leaving him around php7K for incidentals (water, kid's allowances, school, medical care, etc.)

Is that about right? 7K for his computers, ipods, leisure, etc...
Which goes back to my original point. affordability.
My bro-in-law is an ex OFW from Saudi, he was working abroad as a welder for more than 10 years, not as immigrant, but a contract worker for a Philippine company who ships workers to the middle east, earning dollars and has an income considered high in the Philippines but still considered as minimum pay here in Canada. His income is tax free (most middle east countries are tax free). And of the 10 years he's been an OFW, his only savings is about Php 100K, a tricycle, a motorbike, a used car, no house, a couple of TVs... Now he's here in Canada, a year later, he's earning more than twice as he was before as an OFW, has a 46inch TV, a Honda Pilot (monthly payments of $500), almost 10K in his bank account, and trying to save for his downpayment on a house. Will he be able to do that in the Philippines? Mind you, he worked for 5 months for his first company, got laid off, collected unemployment for 3 months (60% of his previous salary) and is working again for a different company at a higher rate.
Plus they get credits, around $300 a month (based on his previous year's income from being an OFW which is considered minimum income level in Canada...

Roland,

i mentioned 'on credit.' i bought them on credit, each one bought on different years

"an impressive bungalow, 4 bedrooms, 2 baths, all the amenities (52 inch TVs, etc)....2 cars, and right now they're slowing furnishing their summer cottage near the lake (so they now own 2 houses)..."

did your caregiver-friend acquire those in cash or in credit?

for a perspective on cash-credit, i'd like to borrow an example used by a columnist here:

===========

Imagine taking a million-peso cash advance on your credit card, using that money to buy a P3-million car with 30 percent down payment, and then valuing the car at P5 million. You go out and tell everyone you are richer by P5 million (the value of the car) when, in fact, you are poorer by the P1 million you originally borrowed. That is the way the West has operated for years.

===========

i wonder how long will your caregiver-friend take to pay for those?

i can't deny the existence of cheap credit there. i sometimes wish cheap credit were available here too.

could working 18-hour days 7 days a week just to pay off debt still be called "quality of life"?

"You're berating the public school systems here in Canada and the US, but you're still in your LA/NY mentality that all public schools (Phils and abroad) are rotten, or for poor people only. Unlike in the Philippines, the public school systems in the western countries are way more advance than those in the Philippines"

tsk tsk tsk i knew it you'd say that. please note that i wrote "The quality of public education and public health care is not the issue here." And i never 'berated' the public school systems there

why are you comparing the public schools there with the public schools here? you are already living there, so what does making such a comparison accomplish?

why don't you compare the public schools there with the private schools there?

lets see how the public school graduates there compare with the graduates of private schools there

now are the public local community colleges there light years ahead of Ateneo, DLSU and UST? well lets see their (community colleges) graduates compare with the graduates from Stanford, MIT, Caltech, the Ivy League and the 'public Ivy League' like the University of California

in short, if a public school kid here cannot compete with a private school kid here, the situation is the same there - a public school kid cannot compete with a private school kid.

my point is - how can it still be "quality of life" if one had to depend on the state for education?

"Can you say that in a couple of years, your children will have opportunities like you had since you are very content on duking it out in the Philippines?"

not in 2 years. but why should it be in 2 years only? cheap credit, not  hard work, makes it possible to acquire in 2 years the trappings of the  "quality life" there. the hard work comes in after acquisition - when its time to pay for it

"I'm just pragmatic and tired of hoping for our politicians to change. a country of 80 million people, a majority (12Million) of which is crammed into an area of 600 kilometers (Quezon City/Makati/Manila), much like LA or NY, although worse (LA's population is around 3.8million in an area of 1000KM) , there is bound to be a boiling point that people would have to jump ship as since there is only so much opportunities for people to improve their lives."

pragmatic?

my goodness! why are you letting the politicians dictate how you navigate your future?

why, did the US politicians ever contribute to the "good life" of Pinoy migrants there?

why limit yourself to Metro Manila? Cebu and Davao are more livable. So are General Santos, Dumaguete, Iloilo, Bacolod, Cagayan de Oro, and many others

 

Roland,

you really define "quality of life" in terms of "gadgets"

"Is that about right? 7K for his computers, ipods, leisure, etc..."

er, whoever said that those trappings all had to be bought at the same time?

and why does it have to be an ipod?

again i ask, can you buy all those there in cash at the same time? without relying on credit?

question on your bro-in-law before Canada - was he supporting people here?

again, all the "gadgets" you mentioned were acquired thru credit. the real measure of making it there is buying all of those trappings of the "quality life" in cash. not credit! can your bro-in-law buy all of those in cash, if cheap credit is not available?

is working 18 hour days 7 days a week just to pay off those debt still a "quality of life"?

"Will he be able to do that in the Philippines?"

if cheap credit were available here, yes

besides, did he ever try to do that here?

"Mind you, he worked for 5 months for his first company, got laid off, collected unemployment for 3 months (60% of his previous salary) and is working again for a different company at a higher rate.
Plus they get credits, around $300 a month (based on his previous year's income from being an OFW which is considered minimum income level in Canada..."

oh no problem with that. thanks to the state!

 

I'm not dissing new graduates. But the reality is, I'm stuck with a new nurse all the time. And while I appreciate them, it would be nice to be treated by someone who's been in the field for ten years once in a while, versus one that has the total experience of an intern.  Majority of the best and inexperienced are gone, and those who stay are stretched thin. 

And I never said nursing grads were incompetent (check my post) they're INEXPERIENCED.  And those with enough experience, who could have acted as a mentor, are gone.  

I have an aunt who was a head nurse here, and then migrated to become a head nurse at several hospitals. She's back home now, and the first thing she noticed was how understaffed city hospitals were.  One nurse takes care of as much as ten beds, while in the states the ratio is more 1:3.  If that's how it is in the city, imagine what it's like in the provinces?

Look at Scalabrini's migration figures, and you'll see an even bleaker view.  

And even if new grads are INEXPERIENCED, we need them to stay because there is a shortage.  We need people who can contribute to the profession, especially now that the RP is beefing up it's medical industry.

If anything, we need to take advantage of our vast resource of nursing grads in analyzing how we can improve the nursing profession.  Nurses aren't just stuck in hospitals, they can be teachers and researchers too.  But how can we do that when we can't even staff our own hospitals?

Again, I see where you're coming from.  You see the stats, and think "wow, there's a surplus".  If you want to do better research on this, I suggest calling on Scalabrini.  They specialize in migration theology and economics. They not only have the numbers, but the story behind those numbers too. 

 

 

 

"i wonder how long will your caregiver-friend take to pay for those?"
could working 18-hour days 7 days a week just to pay off debt still be called "quality of life"?

She works 8 hour days, Just travelled to vegas a couple of weeks ago... She's currently 10 years shy on her 25 year mortgage (which became 20 years because they paid bi-weekly) plus they sometime pay extra whenever they can. A nurse's pay is a bit higher than IT people nowadays, so they were able to afford to buy that $30K lot near the lake. The husband is handy with carpentry so he's building a nice cottage there... The $30K price for the lot is almost the same as a nice car, so they'd be paying off the loan in around 5 years... In my case, I'm paying the same monthly mortgage as what I'd be paying when I rent. So why rent, when I can own my own house? My house is not as nice as theirs as I'm just starting out. They've been here in Canada for more than 10 years now, started out the same, bought a cheap house, sold it and bought a bigger house, and so forth...
But basically, my gist here, is that even on credit, we are ABLE to pay off these credit (reasonable credit and not backbreaking credit), and still have some left for luxuries like travel, and of course, gadgets...
I forgot how rich you are that you can buy a house using cash... :-)
As if in the Philippines you can live without credit... hmm, when I was there, I didn't really have any use for credit, as I lived in my parents house (no mortgage), use their car (no monthly payments), leeched off from them... I guess you don't have any loans too then?

You'd have to measure ratio between EFFORT and REWARD instead of saying that people abroad needs to be working 18 hours a week to pay off debt. The reason those people work for 18 hours, is because that is the level of reward they want.
If they want an expensive house, then cool, but they'd have to work the 18 hours... if you want a regular house, then work 8 hours....

Compared with living in the Phils, even if you work 24 hours (as a nurse), you still won't be able to afford that regular house... Quality of life is when you are able to afford to LIVE and still able to afford LEISURE. My bro-in-law doesn't support any other family except his...most of his salary goes to pay rent, his kid's school, basic necessities, and etc.

"now are the public local community colleges there light years ahead of Ateneo, DLSU and UST? well lets see their (community colleges) graduates compare with the graduates from Stanford, MIT, Caltech, the Ivy League and the 'public Ivy League' like the University of California"

There is no such thing as a public University or college (not that I know of)... When I mentioned comparisons between public schools and private schools, it is for elementary/high schools...

In your example, DLSU, ADMU, etc, so you're saying they are superior to UP, PUP and other government run universities? :-)

"my goodness! why are you letting the politicians dictate how you navigate your future?"

Yes.
One example: I bought a lot in Quezon City, I was working in Makati back then, I tried to register the transfer of title, and other red tape, I was told that I'd have to visit so and so department, and have to hurdle around 3 days worth of comings and goings in order to register the lot in my name. Enter assistant of some politician, paid them the fees, and taxes. Looked at my receipt, saw that they under declared the purchase price, pocketed the difference, and even gave me a discount to my actual taxes. Either I do that or lose more money by being absent from work....
There are other stories, some are more brutal than others (Did you know that mayors in the Philippines dip their hands into most business endeavors for the coveted "Mayor's permit", a jollibee franchise there, 50% of a store there, etc...) Ask any chinese businessman....Don't get me started with hulidap and kidnappings (specially election time)....

Beautiful! Thanks to all you smart people for such a smart and insightful ... sometimes extremely passionate... discussion.  We who helped built this site are precisely trying to FOCUS - as Paolo recommends - on the positive solutions for the FULL SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT of the Philippines. Instead of viewing departing professionals and students as a "brain drain" we called this network way back in 1992 the Brain Gain Network (Judith, I believe we were first in coining the  term "brain gain" - ala Filipino cutesy-style hahaha. So Pinoy!  it beat out the acronym "POGI = Pilipino Organization for Greater Industrialization" :-) ).

Let's look at the Philippine economy as a system and our people as the all important, vital human resources.  More training whether in Manila, abroad or on the internet can almost always be viewed as a NET GAIN... PROVIDED WE  FIND WAYS AND ARE ABLE TO TAP THEM. We hope that this BGN site can inspire and even provide enabling technology for the formation of projects and even companies that allow experts to return or at least work with groups in the Philippines.

And, even this simple discussion with smart perspectives is enough to provide good feedback to our policy makers that there are experts that should be tapped - if not hired -  at least for ideas on what motivates expat pinoys considering where they work and live. It also indicates that there are a good percentage of Filipinos abroad who might be willing to come home (we need a good survey, Judith and Nicole) and provide talent to innovative companies.

These are some of the ways by which we GAIN from their experience. And we are sure that we have not thought of all the ways to tap the Global Filipino Diaspora and convert this into a net gain, however, this network surely has many brilliant people with good innovative ideas for other ways to enable Filipinos to cooperate such that more and more of us can live in the Philippines and enjoy the wonderful quality of life and the beautiful country.

Now regarding the question of where on can earn more etc: this is a tough question and maybe a good research survey will be best to answer this. But from my almost two decades engaged in this "brain gain" advocacy, I noticed that the people who moved away to places like the US might have enjoyed a material net gain in terms of (compensation - taxes - higher costs of tuition, food) but would definitely have given up a lot in terms of family ties, culture, and even personal time (e.g. laundry, chores, baby-sitting vs going to the beach, hanging with friends while a Yaya helps watch the kids sleep).  Each person's utility function is different and I have personally taken the approach that each person is different and we let each choose their own path. We at BGN work simply to improve the probabilities that more and more of us learn of the opportunities to work in or with the Philippines and through that improve the lot of the people who choose to live in the Philippines and help improve the socio-economic situation there (even the political as I know many expat Pinoys would make better leaders than many we have today)... I believe we need to work together in the BGN MOST ESPECIALLY for the less privileged in the Philippines who don't even have a chance to obtain a passport or have the education that would make them even a candidate for a foreign job.

Mabuhay tayong lahat!

"There is no such thing as a public University or college (not that I know of)... "

That would be the state colleges.  Usually "U of State, City".  The UC system is public, but referred to as "public Ivy" because they're very good. 

“She works 8 hour days,”

 5 days a week?

 “ Just travelled to vegas a couple of weeks ago... “

 Sorry to say this, but that’s no big deal. How far is Vegas from her place in Canada? I’ll be impressed if she goes to the Philippines in the morning to gamble and goes back to Canada later in the same day!

 Though I don’t gamble, we could go easily to PAGCOR or to nearby Macau if we want to play in casinos. Why does it have to be in Vegas?

 “She's currently 10 years shy on her 25 year mortgage (which became 20 years because they paid bi-weekly) plus they sometime pay extra whenever they can.”

 No different from PAG-IBIG and SSS loan arrangements

 “A nurse's pay is a bit higher than IT people nowadays, so they were able to afford to buy that $30K lot near the lake.”

 I know. A nurse there is an independent professional.

 “The husband is handy with carpentry so he's building a nice cottage there... “

 No problem with that

 “The $30K price for the lot is almost the same as a nice car, so they'd be paying off the loan in around 5 years... “

 You can get a lot here for less than US$30K

 “In my case, I'm paying the same monthly mortgage as what I'd be paying when I rent. So why rent, when I can own my own house?”

 No different from here.

 “My house is not as nice as theirs as I'm just starting out. They've been here in Canada for more than 10 years now, started out the same, bought a cheap house, sold it and bought a bigger house, and so forth... “

 No different from here

 “But basically, my gist here, is that even on credit, we are ABLE to pay off these credit (reasonable credit and not backbreaking credit), and still have some left for luxuries like travel, and of course, gadgets... “

 Again, no different from here. we are also ABLE to pay off our credits here. I thought people migrate to the US and Canada to be more financially independent

 “I forgot how rich you are that you can buy a house using cash... :-) “

 er, kindly quote the specific sentence where I expressly said that I bought my house using cash.

 buying in cash instead of in credit is proof of financial independence. If while here one is dependent on credit, and when he arrives in the US or Canada, he is still beholden to credit, what’s the difference?

 I’ll be impressed if the examples you gave all bought the trappings of the “qualify of life” in cash

 “As if in the Philippines you can live without credit... hmm, when I was there, I didn't really have any use for credit, as I lived in my parents house (no mortgage), use their car (no monthly payments), leeched off from them... I guess you don't have any loans too then?”

 er, kindly refer to my earlier posts. I said that the gadgets that you mentioned are also available here, on credit.

 I hope you’re seeing the irony. A Pinoy leaves a debt-free lifestyle here to migrate to the US or Canada and be debt-ridden until retirement!

”You'd have to measure ratio between EFFORT and REWARD instead of saying that people abroad needs to be working 18 hours a week to pay off debt. The reason those people work for 18 hours, is because that is the level of reward they want. ‘

 Well, if you put in the same efforts here, you’d get the same reward.

 “If they want an expensive house, then cool, but they'd have to work the 18 hours... if you want a regular house, then work 8 hours....”

 No different from here

”Compared with living in the Phils, even if you work 24 hours (as a nurse), you still won't be able to afford that regular house... “

 SSS or PAG-IBIG can enable a nurse to purchase that regular house.

 “Quality of life is when you are able to afford to LIVE and still able to afford LEISURE. My bro-in-law doesn't support any other family except his...most of his salary goes to pay rent, his kid's school, basic necessities, and etc. “

 Your bro-in-law had no savings because his earnings went to his biggest investments – his family

 Quality of life is being debt-free. One cannot  really live if he is in debt. Why would one be in debt just to be in leisure?

”There is no such thing as a public University or college (not that I know of)... When I mentioned comparisons between public schools and private schools, it is for elementary/high schools... “

 While here, a person could afford to send his kids to private school. In the US, this person had no choice but to send his kid to public school. Why? He can’t afford private education. Which means that his financial capacity in the US actually decreased compared to when he was still here. because here he still has extra money to send his kid to private school. There, the person has no more funds for private education, so going to public school is inevitable.

”In your example, DLSU, ADMU, etc, so you're saying they are superior to UP, PUP and other government run universities? :-)”

 er, refer to ‘my example’ again. It started with ‘now are the local public local community colleges there light years ahead of Ateneo, DLSU and UST?” it is a question, directed to Pinoy migrants who often claim that public schools there are a lot better than the private schools here, to justify the attendance in a public school (they just could not say directly that they can’t send their kid to private school due to lack of funds)

”Yes.
One example: I bought a lot in Quezon City, I was working in Makati back then, I tried to register the transfer of title, and other red tape, I was told that I'd have to visit so and so department, and have to hurdle around 3 days worth of comings and goings in order to register the lot in my name. Enter assistant of some politician, paid them the fees, and taxes. Looked at my receipt, saw that they under declared the purchase price, pocketed the difference, and even gave me a discount to my actual taxes. Either I do that or lose more money by being absent from work....”

 so what has that got to do with your quest for a quality of life here? did that adversely affect your livelihood here?

 “There are other stories, some are more brutal than others (Did you know that mayors in the Philippines dip their hands into most business endeavors for the coveted "Mayor's permit", a jollibee franchise there, 50% of a store there, etc...) Ask any chinese businessman....Don't get me started with hulidap and kidnappings (specially election time)....”

 My goodness! What have those got to do with your quest for a quality of life here? Did those interfere with your livelihood here? Have you been a victim of hulidap and kidnapping? How did city hall or municipal hall rip you off?

Francis, You talk about financial independence, like "Again, no different from here. we are also ABLE to pay off our credits here. I thought people migrate to the US and Canada to be more financially independent", and so forth,

So, I guess you are one of the lucky ones. Can you tell me that all of your money and properties are earned without help from any relative or opportunities granted to you by your affluent family?

"I hope you’re seeing the irony. A Pinoy leaves a debt-free lifestyle here to migrate to the US or Canada and be debt-ridden until retirement!"

The Pinoy has a debt-free lifestyle because he CANNOT afford or is not qualified to access it in the first place . Debts like mortgage (which is the debt we are going to discuss here, all others we can considered superficial), are double edged, as they can also be called investments. My only major debt here is my mortgage, and considering my property valuation is 50% more than what I initially paid for, I can say that I'm 50% richer for it rather than 15 years in debt (which is my remaining mortgage).

Your example of a pinoy (in the US) being debt-ridden until retirement is not a general example as I can cite that 80% of pinoys in the Philippines ARE ALSO DEBT-RIDDEN until DEATH. I cite the fact that most statistics quote that more than 70%of pinoys are in POVERTY LEVEL. You tend to only think of yourself as an example, rather look at the larger picture of how most of the pinoys REALLY ARE.

"Well, if you put in the same efforts here, you’d get the same reward." This is just funny. My work here is the same work I do in Manila, and within 3 years here , I am financially independent (except for my mortgage, which if you still insists is a "DEBT-RIDDEN condition until retirement", just imagine that it is monthly rent instead... As one can always stop their debt by selling their house), have about $20K in retirement savings (on top of the government mandatory retirement fund), around $10K college education savings for my kids, of which the Canadian government contribute 20% per dollar, nice car, etc, compared with my 10 years in Manila, whereas I don't have any debts (since I don't have a house, car, etc) but only have less than Php100K savings.

well, you may be right, that one can have the same "quality of life" in the Philippines as in abroad, but I guess only for the priviledge few like you.

"My goodness! What have those got to do with your quest for a quality of life here? Did those interfere with your livelihood here? Have you been a victim of hulidap and kidnapping? How did city hall or municipal hall rip you off?"
My brother was a victim of kidnapping (or hulidap, he was acosted by "military personnel", extorted and had to go around banks to pay for his "ransom", they accompanied him inside the banks when he was withdrawing money. My father was later also targetted at one time, and good thing an employee was able to alert us.

"so what has that got to do with your quest for a quality of life here? did that adversely affect your livelihood here?" Obviously, I am wary of starting a business in the Philippines with my experiences (that I cited) with the government and how even within the confines of a bank you are not safe. Plus the fall of education plans, bank runs, need I cite more examples?
Of course, these are isolated examples, can happen to anyone, but one can say it is more LIKELY to happen in the Philippines than here in abroad. If high ranking officials can get away with murder, plunder and scandals, plus the inept planning by the powers that be for basic nessessities like water and electricity, how can you have a good quality of life there?

"it is a question, directed to Pinoy migrants who often claim that public schools there are a lot better than the private schools here, to justify the attendance in a public school (they just could not say directly that they can’t send their kid to private school due to lack of funds)"

i'll just cite what you have been saying, "No different from here." If in the Philippines, they can afford to send their kids to a private school, they can do it here too. The reason that they don't is private schools are no different that public schools here. They can get Kumon, Finger Math, accelerated classes, and the fees aren't really that bad as supplements, if they feel that the public schools aren't adequate. But since I think you are citing universities rather than elem/HS comparisons, I'll give you numbers on how "expensive" universities are here in North America: $2500 average annual fee for an average University classes whichis around Php110K annually, 55K per sem...

In University of California, the annual cost would be around $10K, which is about Php250K per sem... how much is a semester in La Salle/Ateneo? I would guess P150K per sem? My Niece is studying in the University of North Carolina and her annual tuition is around $6000, so that's about Php135K per sem, 270K annually) The only thing driving up the prices is if you add board and lodging, which is about $10K per year....

"SSS or PAG-IBIG can enable a nurse to purchase that regular house." Like those houses that got flooded in Bulacan or those that got buried in the landslides in Rizal? Anyway, when I say regular house, compared in the Philippines, it is probably one of those houses in Ayala Alabang but nearer to your work (about 15 min drive)... Also, not all nurses can qualify for that SSS or PAG-IBIG loans. I guess you don't even know what a Nurse's average salary is in Manila?

"Sorry to say this, but that’s no big deal. How far is Vegas from her place in Canada? I’ll be impressed if she goes to the Philippines in the morning to gamble and goes back to Canada later in the same day!
Though I don’t gamble, we could go easily to PAGCOR or to nearby Macau if we want to play in casinos. Why does it have to be in Vegas?"

I was just citing an example of how "debt-ridden" she is in when she can afford to travel around.... BTW, she also visited her hometown in Batangas a couple of months ago (so she had 2 trips abroad in a year).

Anyway, regarding that $30K lot, I'm not saying that the lot was cheap (in comparison in Phils), I'm just citing the fact that even though they have a mortgage and trips and stuffs, they can still manage to buy a second property all on her salary (well, the husband also had some salary but she has a higher income). And in comparison to her friends who are nurses in the Philippines who still cannot even save up for the "Show Money" required to migrate to Canada (which is Php 500K).

"In University of California, the annual cost would be around $10K, which is about Php250K per sem... how much is a semester in La Salle/Ateneo? I would guess P150K per sem? My Niece is studying in the University of North Carolina and her annual tuition is around $6000, so that's about Php135K per sem, 270K annually) The only thing driving up the prices is if you add board and lodging, which is about $10K per year...."

Errr, more 150k/YEAR for La Salle and the Ateneo.  And depending on which course, tuition actually comes down as your load gets lighter.  For 150k, that would cover tuition, books, meals, miscellany.  Factor in increases, your total cost for school here is $14,000 for all four years.  And that's DLSU and ADMU.

I've had friends go to UC schools.  At a 50% scholarship, my friend from Irvine graduated with $25k in student loans, and that's just for tuition.   Others had to be saddled with as much as $50.  This doesn't cover books (which is ASTRONOMICAL there), and board and lodging. 

The only numbers that can compare to ADMU and DLSU rates are a community college.  In which case, I'd rather just go to PUP where I can pay a whopping 20,000 Php for all four years of my schooling. 

Never mind grad school.  I've seen a security guard go to Law School here with no scholarships and graduate debt free.  Although I can't say the same thing about med school, which is still a rich person's course.  But, I think $25,000 after med school is still more manageable than $200,000.  

When it comes to education, I've seen more people here graduate debt free.  And with our research facilities building up in the big four schools, it might actually make more sense to send your kids to school here. 

 

"Although I can't say the same thing about med school, which is still a rich person's course"

try checking out the tuition (for manila residents)  at the medical school of PLM (Pamantasan ng Lungsod ng Maynila).  i heard its very very low

"Like those houses that got flooded in Bulacan or those that got buried in the landslides in Rizal?"

i don't know. maybe.

maybe you don't know that several upper middle class subdivisions here got flooded by Ondoy's waters.

"Anyway, when I say regular house, compared in the Philippines, it is probably one of those houses in Ayala Alabang but nearer to your work (about 15 min drive)... "

noted. no problem with that. she never could have purchased that without cheap credit

talaga ha? Ayala Alabang-style houses ay regular lang there ha? :-)

"Also, not all nurses can qualify for that SSS or PAG-IBIG loans. I guess you don't even know what a Nurse's average salary is in Manila?"

oh i do, i do. if your friend were still here, she'd qualify for a loan from them

availability of cheap credit, and not necessarily big spending power, enables migrants to immediately purchase the trappings of "quality of life" there

too bad cheap credit isn't available here

"E""Like those houses that got flooded in Bulacan or those that got buried in the landslides in Rizal?"
"i don't know. maybe.
maybe you don't know that several upper middle class subdivisions here got flooded by Ondoy's waters."

I know, I saw the videos specially that of the video of that swirling pool in a parking lot. I not really saying those houses suck, I'm just pointing out that no matter where you live in the Philippines, if the government doesn't plan for the infrastructure, you will have floods, water shortage, electricity disruptions, and worse, landslides (for those areas that had massive deforestation) When we were there in Manila, my wife and her officemates were offered house and lots in Rizal, for cheap, and a lot of them took the deal... fast forward 15 years later, most of them had already sold their houses at a loss, some of them got flooded, had massive cracks, etc. Their travel time to work got longer due to poor planning of roads. blah, blah... Most of them are now asking us how to migrate here in Canada...

Smart arguments... perhaps the disagreement lies on how we define 'words' and 'points-of-view'. Not because one is overseas means better ‘quality of living’...although most Filipinos really succeed abroad, I have personally witnessed both well-off and really struggling Filipinos in the few developed countries I have lived in. The difference however would be the opportunities each one has... but the fact is that – the richer you are, the better opportunities and flexibility you’ll have. --oOo-- “Poor Juan could have flown all the way from Cotabato to study in La Salle if only his family could have afforded it.” There’s actually more that you could give if you yourself has more... so a richer government would be able to spend hundreds of billions of dollars in infrastructure, education, health, etc. and create opportunities of better living for its people than a government that only have a billion dollars or less. --oOo-- Is it Juan’s fault? …his parents… or grandparents… or great grandparents? Each one of these people could contribute to the success or even wealth of their offspring and next generations if they chose to. --oOo-- Being born poor is not Juan’s fault but if he doesn’t do anything and remains in the same state then we can say that Juan is at fault. It doesn’t mean that because we grew up in a developing country, we don’t have opportunities other than going overseas (hardly) – we do have a lot also in the Philippines but not as much unfortunately! --oOo-- It doesn’t mean that Juan doesn’t have any opportunity. Despite being born poor, there may be opportunities for Juan to find out or much better if Juan could create opportunities for himself (e.g. study well and get scholarships, etc.). Similarly, people succeed or fail in life because they haven’t made the best use of every opportunity they have despite the fact that they live in rich developed countries. So how about the poor developing countries? Have we ever thought why investors both local and foreign come to the Philippines to invest? …simply because there’s money! --oOo-- …It is very possible for Juan to get good education and a very good job or even start his own company eventually. Juan could then position himself to help in the betterment of his parents’ and even his young siblings’ lives. --oO0-- However, Juan is the eldest child who could best take care of his parents... but since he still has younger siblings, it may still be okay for Juan to leave. How about if the next one leaves, then the next one…? In the near future, no child will be left with the sickly parents. So, should Juan and the rest of his siblings eventually leave their parents to the care of relatives or even worse the neighbors? And so is ‘brain drain’… most Filipinos desire to live better lives and give better future for their children, parents and siblings aside from the many other reasons why they leave the country. On the other hand, could Juan create opportunities for his younger siblings to stay with their parents and live decent lives if not excellent ones? OR …should Juan just tell his parents that they create opportunities to their children so that the rest of the Juan’s siblings stay with them?

Smart arguments... perhaps the disagreement lies on how we define 'words' and 'points-of-view'. Not because one is overseas means better ‘quality of living’...although most Filipinos really succeed abroad, I have personally witnessed both well-off and really struggling Filipinos in the few developed countries I have lived in. The difference however would be the opportunities each one has... but the fact is that – the richer you are, the better opportunities and flexibility you’ll have. -- “Poor Juan could have flown all the way from Cotabato to study in La Salle if only his family could have afforded it.” There’s actually more that you could give if you yourself has more... so a richer government would be able to spend hundreds of billions of dollars in infrastructure, education, health, etc. and create opportunities of better living for its people than a government that only have a billion dollars or less. -- Is it Juan’s fault? …his parents… or grandparents… or great grandparents? Each one of these people could contribute to the success or even wealth of their offspring and next generations if they chose to. -- Being born poor is not Juan’s fault but if he doesn’t do anything and remains in the same state then we can say that Juan is at fault. It doesn’t mean that because we grew up in a developing country, we don’t have opportunities other than going overseas (hardly) – we do have a lot also in the Philippines but not as much unfortunately! -- It doesn’t mean that Juan doesn’t have any opportunity. Despite being born poor, there may be opportunities for Juan to find out or much better if Juan could create opportunities for himself (e.g. study well and get scholarships, etc.). Similarly, people succeed or fail in life because they haven’t made the best use of every opportunity they have despite the fact that they live in rich developed countries. So how about the poor developing countries? Have we ever thought why investors both local and foreign come to the Philippines to invest? …simply because there’s money! -- …It is very possible for Juan to get good education and a very good job or even start his own company eventually. Juan could then position himself to help in the betterment of his parents’ and even his young siblings’ lives. -- However, Juan is the eldest child who could best take care of his parents... but since he still has younger siblings, it may still be okay for Juan to leave. How about if the next one leaves, then the next one…? In the near future, no child will be left with the sickly parents. So, should Juan and the rest of his siblings eventually leave their parents to the care of relatives or even worse the neighbors? And so is ‘brain drain’… most Filipinos desire to live better lives and give better future for their children, parents and siblings aside from the many other reasons why they leave the country. On the other hand, could Juan create opportunities for his younger siblings to stay with their parents and live decent lives if not excellent ones? OR …should Juan just tell his parents that they create opportunities to their children so that the rest of the Juan’s siblings stay with them?

Yes, I agreed with Eugene. We have to contextualize our arguments or else we are just throwing opinions just for the sake of winning a debate but with a shallow effect.  We can't highlight an argument by comparing an apple to an orange. Sorry to say but it is totally absurd if in case we are just comparing two different situations, two different conditions, two different incidences, etc. etc.

Just like to share everyone that we have secured from our partners like Accelrys, CST, and Altium. to sponsor experts and do a seminar to this country. Anyone in the area research of material Science, Electromagnetics, and electronics board design, PCB and FPGA are welcome to participate. entrance is free. advising schedule once fixed and wait for the posting. Hope all these can be translated to action. and solutions

“I'm just pointing out that no matter where you live in the Philippines, if the government doesn't plan for the infrastructure, you will have floods, water shortage, electricity disruptions, and worse, landslides (for those areas that had massive deforestation)”

 Er, as if the floods, water shortage, electricity disruptions, and worse, landslides are expected in every nook and cranny here.

 You want to avoid landslides? Don’t buy a house near a mountain or a hill

 “When we were there in Manila, my wife and her officemates were offered house and lots in Rizal, for cheap, and a lot of them took the deal... fast forward 15 years later, most of them had already sold their houses at a loss, some of them got flooded, had massive cracks, etc.”

 Er, that’s just one subdivision in Rizal.

 “Their travel time to work got longer due to poor planning of roads. blah, blah... “

 Er, are you saying that they bought houses expecting that the roads later will be in good working condition? Why did they buy those houses in the first place if good roads aren’t in place yet?

 “Most of them are now asking us how to migrate here in Canada...”

 And it all started from buying a cheap house in Rizal? Just because ‘Their travel time to work got longer due to poor planning of roads. blah, blah...’ its time to leave the country na agad?

“So, I guess you are one of the lucky ones. Can you tell me that all of your money and properties are earned without help from any relative or opportunities granted to you by your affluent family? “

Here’s my definition of lucky – the harder I work, the luckier I get

I’m not affluent. My family isn’t affluent. I just get by thru old-fashioned hard work

”The Pinoy has a debt-free lifestyle because he CANNOT afford or is not qualified to access it in the first place .”

 Cheap credit is available there, but not here.

 “Debts like mortgage (which is the debt we are going to discuss here, all others we can considered superficial), are double edged, as they can also be called investments.”

 er, in your definition of ‘quality of life’ you specified ‘gadgets’ and how migrants there could acquire them right away

 “My only major debt here is my mortgage, and considering my property valuation is 50% more than what I initially paid for, I can say that I'm 50% richer for it rather than 15 years in debt (which is my remaining mortgage).”

 well, that kind of arrangement is available here too! Mortgages on a house are available here.

”Your example of a pinoy (in the US) being debt-ridden until retirement is not a general example as I can cite that 80% of pinoys in the Philippines ARE ALSO DEBT-RIDDEN until DEATH.”

 Really? So there’s no difference then! Debt-ridden here, debt-ridden there. So what’s the use of migrating? There’s no significant improvement in lifestyle

 “I cite the fact that most statistics quote that more than 70%of pinoys are in POVERTY LEVEL. You tend to only think of yourself as an example, rather look at the larger picture of how most of the pinoys REALLY ARE. “

 Er, take note, we are talking about Pinoys migrating to other countries. The 30% who are outside the poverty line are always the ones who are able to migrate, not the ones belonging to the 70% in the “POVERTY LINE”

”This is just funny.”

No its not.

“My work here is the same work I do in Manila, and within 3 years here , I am financially independent (except for my mortgage, which if you still insists is a "DEBT-RIDDEN condition until retirement", just imagine that it is monthly rent instead... “

Er, one can be financially independent here! and the ‘gadgets’ you mentioned can also be bought here, on credit, just like there

“As one can always stop their debt by selling their house),

Many are doing that here.

“have about $20K in retirement savings (on top of the government mandatory retirement fund),”

Er, having US$20K (in peso) in retirement savings is also possible here

“around $10K college education savings for my kids,”

Er, how much is the tuition for a privately-owned university there?

“of which the Canadian government contribute 20% per dollar,”

Pinoys migrate to another country to depend on the state for education. How come when they were still here, they won’t even consider depending on the state for the education of their children (exception – studying in UP, PUP, and other state colleges and universities)

“nice car, etc,”

Oh, one can get a nice car here too

“compared with my 10 years in Manila, whereas I don't have any debts (since I don't have a house, car, etc) but only have less than Php100K savings.”

Well, why didn’t you incur debt then to get the trappings of the ‘quality of life’ that you have there now?

 By the way, do you already have the $20K in retirement savings and the around $10K college education savings for your kids?

”well, you may be right, that one can have the same "quality of life" in the Philippines as in abroad, but I guess only for the priviledge few like you. “

 Let me say it again – the harder I work, the luckier I get.

 Maybe I should also say “the harder I work, the more privileged I get”

”My brother was a victim of kidnapping (or hulidap, he was acosted by "military personnel", extorted and had to go around banks to pay for his "ransom", they accompanied him inside the banks when he was withdrawing money. My father was later also targetted at one time, and good thing an employee was able to alert us.”

 I don’t blame your brother if he migrates to another country.

”Obviously, I am wary of starting a business in the Philippines with my experiences (that I cited) with the government and how even within the confines of a bank you are not safe.

That depends on what bank you place your money on

“Plus the fall of education plans, bank runs, need I cite more examples? “

Please name the banks that had a bank run during the presidency of gloria. Name the  banks here that needed a bailout. Now name the banks in the US that needed a federal bailout.

I’ll be the first to name the stand-alone pre-need firms that folded up. The firms who had pre-need products on top of other products, like Philamlife, SunLife, Manulife, Insular Life, were not affected

Hope your company did not invest part of your retirement in derivatives issued by Lehman Brothers

“Of course, these are isolated examples, can happen to anyone, but one can say it is more LIKELY to happen in the Philippines than here in abroad.”

‘LIKELY’? that’s pure speculation. Just take note of what happened in Wall Street.

“If high ranking officials can get away with murder, plunder and scandals, plus the inept planning by the powers that be for basic nessessities like water and electricity, how can you have a good quality of life there?”

Oh my friend, a lot of Pinoys are enjoying the good life here – Pinoys who get by thru hard work, without the help of ‘affluent’ family or relatives. And that despite the presence of “high ranking officials” who  “can get away with murder, plunder and scandals” and of  “inept planners”

”i'll just cite what you have been saying, "No different from here." If in the Philippines, they can afford to send their kids to a private school, they can do it here too. The reason that they don't is private schools are no different that public schools here.”

I’ll say this disclaimer again – my use of public-private education is only as far as showing the financial capacity of the person: if a person can send his kid to private school, it shows that he has extra money, compared to the person who has no choice but to send his kid to a public school, due to lack of funds. A Pinoy migrates to another country and becomes dependent on the state for education. Which means that his financial capacity there isn’t big enough, compared to the time when that same migrant was still here, as he has extra funds to send his kids to private school

“They can get Kumon, Finger Math, accelerated classes, and the fees aren't really that bad as supplements, if they feel that the public schools aren't adequate.”

Oh, Kumon, Finger Math etc are also available here!

“But since I think you are citing universities rather than elem/HS comparisons, I'll give you numbers on how "expensive" universities are here in North America: $2500 average annual fee for an average University classes which is around Php110K annually, 55K per sem... “

That’s for state colleges and universities.  For sure if he can afford it, a Pinoy will send his kid to Caltech, MIT, Stanford, or the Ivy League, without resorting to loans.

”In University of California, the annual cost would be around $10K, which is about Php250K per sem... how much is a semester in La Salle/Ateneo? I would guess P150K per sem?” My Niece is studying in the University of North Carolina and her annual tuition is around $6000, so that's about Php135K per sem, 270K annually) The only thing driving up the prices is if you add board and lodging, which is about $10K per year....”

DLSU and ADMU – 150K a year! And that’s for computer science and other technical courses. The tuition is cheaper for other courses

 

 

 

"Oh my friend, a lot of Pinoys are enjoying the good life here – Pinoys who get by thru hard work, without the help of ‘affluent’ family or relatives. And that despite the presence of “high ranking officials” who “can get away with murder, plunder and scandals” and of “inept planners”"

hmm... I think you are living in a different part of the Philippines if you consider yourself included in the "majority" of pinoys which is my definition of "a lot"...I kinda thought that the surveys saying that more than 70% of pinoys consider themselves poor/almost poor was proof enough. Are you saying that it is their fault they are poor by not working hard enough?

"Er, take note, we are talking about Pinoys migrating to other countries. The 30% who are outside the poverty line are always the ones who are able to migrate, not the ones belonging to the 70% in the “POVERTY LINE”"

Get your facts straight. There are lots of mail-order brides, white slavery victims, TNTs, OFW jumping ship, etc who in the end do get to migrate (and legalize their stay)... not just those 30% who you claim to be the exclusive "rich" immigrants (who you claim can afford to send their kids to exclusive schools). Being a nurse is also one ticket most poor people use to be able to immigrate, which is the main topic for this blog,

Also, a majority of immigrants are families of those TNTs, mail-order brides, Nurses and OFWs. For every 1 initial immigrant, they petition for their relatives, and they bring on average, at least 3 to 4 other relatives in, whether rich or poor... and in most cases, only those that are in a high paying job even if they are "hardly working" as you claim, that grabs the chance to immigrate. In actuality, less than 10% of the immigrants, are those who you claim to be rich and can afford to live in the Philippines

I know a lot of people who doesn't want to immigrate because they have "high" paying jobs in manila (which is probably your case too). Some of them, who are rich, that would never consider immigrating and is probably as adamant like you when it comes discussions about the pros and cons of immigrating. There also those, who later change their minds, and quit their high paying jobs to immigrate... (which is not that many, since why the hell would they leave their cushy job only to start all over again abroad?)

And there are those too, that are knocking their heads up the wall for choosing to stay in the Philippines (like a friend of mine who is now in Singapore, trying to look for a job, whereas most of our classmates right now are living it up in the US, Australia, NZ, etc ). My friend, (the one looking for a job in Singapore), was a rich guy, had his own business, and is a hard worker. I asked him, how come only now, he says, he needs to give his kids the opportunity. My other friend who has a cushy job, also left for abroad, fed up with the government, and other reasons.

"available here too! Mortgages on a house are available here."
"Er, having US$20K (in peso) in retirement savings is also possible here"
"Oh, Kumon, Finger Math etc are also available here!"
What kind of argument are these? It's like saying, "A billion pesos can also be possible here", "Yachts are available here", "60 inch TVs are available here too"... Sure, everything is possible anywhere! Through hard work, anything is possible, but what are the likelihood, one can achieve it in the Philippines vis-a-vis abroad? Are you saying it is an EQUAL chance for everyone or it is more likely possible outside of the Philippines?

BTW, US$20K (in peso), that what I have in retirement savings for the past five years... compound that with around 25 or more years BEFORE I retire, (hmm, lets say times 5, that's around $100K upon retirement)... Is it possible there too? yes, but how likely can a poor Juan Dela Cruz like me can do that there? Can you say that a "lot" of pinoys are like you? NO, a lot of pinoys are not like you, a majority of them are dreaming of the green grass on the next hill like everyone else. The probinsyano is dreaming of going to Manila, the Manileno is dreaming to go to America, the Americans are dreaming of going to Manila (but with the US Salary or those who retired with the $100K fund).

hmm... I think you are living in a different part of the Philippines if you consider yourself included in the "majority" of pinoys which is my definition of "a lot"..."

'lot' is not yet 'majority' because the majority is stil suffering with the migration virus. the majority still cannot see the fact that what they thought they can acquire abroad, they can already acquire here

"I kinda thought that the surveys saying that more than 70% of pinoys consider themselves poor/almost poor was proof enough."

er, there is such a thing as 'nouveau poor'. i don't know who the respondents are, but a person who is forced to reduce his daily Starbucks consumption would consider himself poor (by the way, im not a coffee drinker so i don't go to Starbucks)

and that 70% is 70% of the respondents, not 70% of 90 million

"Are you saying that it is their fault they are poor by not working hard enough?"

no

er, take note, there's a subjective aspect on self-rating.

"Get your facts straight."

oh i already did. thank you. it seems you're the one who need to get his facts straight

"There are lots of mail-order brides, white slavery victims, TNTs, OFW jumping ship, etc who in the end do get to migrate (and legalize their stay)... "

er, what has mail-order brides, white slavery victims, TNTs, OFW jumping ship got to do with our discussion on migrating?  are you saying that their existence made you migrate?

"not just those 30% who you claim to be the exclusive "rich" immigrants (who you claim can afford to send their kids to exclusive schools). "

er, for purposes of our discussion, i am referring exclusively to the 30%, because among other things they are the only ones who can come up with the 'show money' requirement

"Being a nurse is also one ticket most poor people use to be able to immigrate, which is the main topic for this blog,"

er, the nurses belong to the 30% too. someone from the 70% cannot even finish high school.

"Also, a majority of immigrants are families of those TNTs, mail-order brides, Nurses and OFWs."

the nurses and the OFWs belong to the 30%. they are college graduates

the mail-order brides and the TNTs are few compared to the legits

"For every 1 initial immigrant, they petition for their relatives, and they bring on average, at least 3 to 4 other relatives in, whether rich or poor... "

because they thought that financial independence is only available there!

i wonder what they are feeling now

"and in most cases, only those that are in a high paying job even if they are "hardly working" as you claim, that grabs the chance to immigrate."

"In actuality, less than 10% of the immigrants, are those who you claim to be rich and can afford to live in the Philippines"

er, they stil belong to the 30%. less than 10% of the immigrants there came from the 70%

"I know a lot of people who doesn't want to immigrate because they have "high" paying jobs in manila

oh mind you, there are many middle management and top management (VPs)  people resigning to bring their families to Canada!

"(which is probably your case too)."

not high

"Some of them, who are rich, that would never consider immigrating"

see comment above

"and is probably as adamant like you when it comes discussions about the pros and cons of immigrating."

they simply don't see the need, because they know there will be no difference

"There also those, who later change their minds, and quit their high paying jobs to immigrate... (which is not that many, since why the hell would they leave their cushy job only to start all over again abroad?) "

oh my friend, don't worry. there are many VP-level people resigning so they can migrate to Canada

"What kind of argument are these? It's like saying, "A billion pesos can also be possible here", "Yachts are available here", "60 inch TVs are available here too"... "

well yoi're making it sound that its not possible here. well it is very possible here.

"A billion pesos can also be possible here",

it seems you are saying you have a shot at a billion pesos there!

"Yachts are available here",

oh yes

"60 inch TVs are available here too"

oh yes

"Sure, everything is possible anywhere!"

so what's the point of migrating if what you can get overseas can be obtained here?

"Through hard work, anything is possible, but what are the likelihood, one can achieve it in the Philippines vis-a-vis abroad?"

i don't know how this very simple obvious fact eludes Pinoys waiting to migrate - they will still work by the sweat of their brow outside the country

well you have not tried it here! so how can you say its not possible here?

if all a Pinoy thinks while still here is migrating, of course he can never acquire the 'trappings' of the quality of life here, as all his efforts are directed at migrating, instead of directing his efforts towards a 'quality of life' here

"Are you saying it is an EQUAL chance for everyone or it is more likely possible outside of the Philippines?"

i don't know what  you mean by 'EQUAL chance' but anybody has a shot at financial independence here. a person who took 8 years to graduate form college may not have the 'EQUAL chance' of a summa cum laude grad from UP, ADMU or DLSU, but who is to say that the 8-year-college person cannot be as financially independent as the summa cum laude guy down the road?

"BTW, US$20K (in peso), that what I have in retirement savings for the past five years... compound that with around 25 or more years BEFORE I retire, (hmm, lets say times 5, that's around $100K upon retirement)... Is it possible there too?"

oh yes! the principle of compund interest knows no geography

"yes, but how likely can a poor Juan Dela Cruz like me can do that there?"

thru old fashioned hard work, living modestly, practicing delayed gratification, and some knowledge on investing

you are already assuming you cannot do it here

"Can you say that a "lot" of pinoys are like you? NO, a lot of pinoys are not like you, a majority of them are dreaming of the green grass on the next hill like everyone else."

too bad they can't see, or they refuse to see,  that the grass is already green inside their fence

"The probinsyano is dreaming of going to Manila, the Manileno is dreaming to go to America, the Americans are dreaming of going to Manila (but with the US Salary or those who retired with the $100K fund)."

If the probinsiyano and Manileño would just look closely inside their fence, they'll see their grass is already green

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I am not yet sure if we would like to moderate all our groups. So far it seems good to have some unmoderated ones like this. However, may I suggest that:

We each do our best to discuss politely with the intent of sharing each of our diffferent, unique points of view. We can each have different ways of measuring each one's "quality of life" or in economics "Utility Function" and each will react with a different level of happiness. May I suggest that we content ourselves with being as objective as humanly possible, respectful of others' opinions and not take arguments personally. Everyone here is trying to help improve the state of the Philippines socio-economic and poltical standing. Maybe, we can move on to other topics or at least not debate any longer whether one place is better than the other? Each is different to different people and even an objective counting even of the economic benefit of getting a larger salary in a first world country seems to be hard to do since people all have different circumstances.

This is precisely one reason why in the BGN.org we don't ask everyone to go back to the Philippines. To each their own and surely one can help even if remotely by sharing good ideas... while others decide that they will be better of in the Philippines and/or they can do more to help the country and our people by returning. To each his or her own and may I beseech each one to respect that.

Peace!

I don't know if you know me Paco, but I've been around so long since the BBSing days of Philippine Internet ( I was the Sysop of OS/2 BBS), but it is all in good fun. Much as I would love to agree with Francis here, I'm just poking out some holes with his statements and finding out how one can really love living in the Philippines in this time of brownouts, calamities, corrupt politiicians, sky rocketing prices, and rising inflation.

I would just love to see what would happen to the Philippines if everyone there has the same point of view as our esteemed lawyer gentleman from Makati. If everyone stayed put, and stopped immigrating or reverse migration occurs (all Filipino migrants came back), then less money will be coming to the Philippines (International remittance will cease), salaries will go down (law of supply and demand), basic necessities like water and power will be more scarce (as if they aren't being rationed nowadays), and the value of the peso will plummet (since no one would buy the peso anymore, since overseas filipinos are the number one consumer of the peso outside of the Philippines, which they use whenever they go home) as the number one export of the Philippines is its citizens.

Maybe that will be the time, that he will consider immigrating.... hehehe

Being someone from the IT industry where a majority of the people I knew or have worked with, have left for greener pastures like the US, Australia/New Zealand, etc., It baffles me, when I meet someone who dizzes these filipinos for "abandoning" the Philippines, and claims that Brain Drain is occuring in the Philippines.

For me, the only brain drain that I know of which had happened (but I don't know if it is still happening now) are the Doctors. When the Nursing migration was in full swing (I think around early 2000 to 2005), I was told by my sister (who is a doctor) that less than 1000 doctors took the medical exams, in contrast to an average of 5000 the previous years. A lot of the doctors shifted to Nursing, and headed for greener pastures of the US.
Surely these guys knew what they were doing, and why would they sacrifice their cushy jobs, just to become nurses which is a step down their pedestals?

Were they blinded by the notion that their "quality of life" in the Philippines is less than the "quality of life" abroad as what our lawyer friend was suggesting?

Anyway, I haven't seen anything in the news that the Doctor brain drain is still occuring so I'm assuming that there is still enough doctors in the Philippines.

"er, what has mail-order brides, white slavery victims, TNTs, OFW jumping ship got to do with our discussion on migrating? are you saying that their existence made you migrate?"

This was in response to your statement:
Er, take note, we are talking about Pinoys migrating to other countries. The 30% who are outside the poverty line are always the ones who are able to migrate, not the ones belonging to the 70% in the “POVERTY LINE”"

I consider mail-order brides, TNTs, OFW jump shipping to be within the 70% of the Poverty line. It doesn't necessarily mean that one who is OFW is rich. They are apple pickers, janitors, fast food attendants, and other jobs not requiring a college degree. As for Mail-order brides, if you lived in the US, you will be surprised as to how many you will meet there.

from Wikipedia; Filipino-American:
Filipinos remain one of the largest immigrant group to date with 80,000 people migrating per annum. About 75% consist of family sponsorship or immediate relatives of American citizens while the remainder is employment-oriented.

So, Mail Order brides or grooms (which is the fastest way to become a US Permanent resident) who became legal, and the rest of the normal immigrants (the only major way of which is via H1B work visa (which is hard to get nowadays) who becomes a citizen after minimum 8 years, 3 years to become Permanent Resident, 5 years to become citizens and able to sponsor relatives)... sponsors their relatives = 75% of the bulk of immigrants (in the US)

Of which, those 75% are made up of different classes, rich and poor alike. This is just to educate you of how immigration is done (for the US, for Canada/Australia/NZ/UK, it is a different number and is probably more than that of the US)

"too bad they can't see, or they refuse to see, that the grass is already green inside their fence"

crab grass? ;-)

well you have not tried it here! so how can you say its not possible here?

I've already worked in the Philippines for almost 8 years... I was not as lucky as you....